Sociolinguistic Interview Transcript


B: Okay, so give me some history about you, like, where you grew up, where you went to school...
I: okay, where I went to school, uh ... well I'm originally from Atlanta, I was there until like seventh grade and then my parents got divorced and then I lived with my Grandmother in the country and I lived there until I was like ten or twelve and then I moved back to Atlanta. So I guess I had a mixture of like urban/rural upbringing.
B: So all of your starting social whatever was in Atlanta when you were young, then you went to live with your Grandmother. Did she live in the country all of her life?
I: yeah
B: So she was "southern belle"
I: you could possibly describe her as that, not quite that ... that's almost on, yeah..
B: whenever I listen to tapes of me when I was that age it sounds so southern... I sound like country bumpkin and like it wasn't until like sixth, seventh eighth grade before I started cuttin' out all this /pai/ and stuff like that... did you have a similar, like if you listened to yourself when you were that age livin' with her was it...
I: nope, not really
B: it wasn't?
I: well my immediate family, my father, mother, ... we didn't really have southernisms in our speech so that wasn't really a big deal. I did use to get in trouble because I talked real "proper." That's what it's called.
B: That was gonna be my next question. Where does the proper speech fit in to all of this? In other words did you learn proper speech from your parents?
I: umm, I wouldn't say that I learned it from them, per se, I would say that I learned it more from school, and television and like.... Walter Cronkite and shit like that.
B: so you went to school in the city of Atlanta for the first few years and, I don't know because I didn't go to school in Atlanta, but, I would suspect that there would be a higher incidence of AAVE in Atlanta schools.
I: I would definitely say that, especially in an any urban environment.
B: So it was only because you went to school for a couple of years in that environment that it didn't affect you that much?
I: ummm... I dunno, that's hard to say, that's definitely hard to say. I think that what happens is AAVE has to be put on a continuum, ya know, like a spectrum and I would say that I'm definitely somewhere in the middle of that spectrum, but probably the people that I knew... the majority of the people that I knew were somewhere to the left or right of that but they were definitely somewhere in a different place than I was and probably because of that fact that's why they considered me to speak "proper" or whatever, ya know? these are like little school kids or whatever.
B: So it's relative, someone that's a very standard speaker would see how you speak as very "dialectal" but someone who was a very heavy dialectal speaker would say that he speaks very "proper" so it all depends on your perspective.
I: It's all really relative, but let me say that as a matter of fact that there are definitely black people who aren't even on the spectrum at all, so you know...there's a difference there also.
B: Right, okay, so uh, where you went to school for the majority of your life, in the country setting..
I: that wouldn't be the majority of the time, the majority of the time would be, like, Atlanta. It was only there for like four or five years. From like one to eight I was in Atlanta, then maybe like nine to twelve I was there and then maybe the rest of the time I was back in Atlanta, that was just like a small portion.
B: okay, so in those five years that you were in the more "country" setting, what percentage of your school was black...
I: yeah, yeah, uhhh... it was like 50/50
B: even at that time the people of that school noticed that you were more "proper" speaking"?
I: yeah, these were like the black students though...
B: The white students weren't like "Man..."
I: no.
B: so those would be some of the difficulties that you had with language at the time? Fitting in, maybe?
I: yeah, I would say that definitely. That's part of that thing that if you don't speak AAVE, you are perceived to speak proper or whatever, um, and you're gonna get some degree of ostracism, ya know what I'm sayin? placed on you.
B: That holds true for anything though, like, I would say that for the most part anything thats different is seen as the outside...
I: True, true, as far as the deviance.
B: In your life have you ever been bidialectal where you speak different around black people than you do white people or even black people that speak standard English.
I: yeah, I mean that code shifting thing applies to me all day long. Its so cool now because it's like I don't even have to think about it, I think maybe when I was younger it was definitely something that I had to think about, but now its like, strictly involuntary.
B: I can relate to that too because.. Especially when you're younger there's a huge difference between the way you talk around your friends and how you talk when you come home and talk to your parent's, so, that's another big example of code-shifting.
I: yeah, it then applies across the board, I think.
B: yeah, and, uh, what do you see as the benefits of speaking a standard English as opposed to AAVE?
I: Um, Standard English is like, of course, the language of wider communication and it's just like, its the language that is the language of, ya know, where we are, right now. So, as opposed, say like I wouldn't necessarily have free reign to speak AAVE in some corporate environment, ya know, therefore speaking in a standard dialect would benefit me there. So that's the purpose, that's the utility for having it, otherwise I wouldn't care necessarily to speak standard English.
B: Alright, here's a perhaps more fun question. What benefits do you see of speaking African American Vernacular as opposed to standard?
I: umm, well, social... social acceptance is probably the number one as far as like a functional reason and then secondly, and more importantly than the other, I just think that it has more like, vigor to it, ya know what I'm sayin'? It's almost musical to me.
B: There's more soul.
I: yeah, to use a cliche, it definitely has more soul. It's colorful as shit.
B: more descriptive.
I: yeah an to me that's just beautiful and to me that just ties into music to me because I'm like this crazy hip-hop fan and that's just like basically a language, it's like poetry.
B: um, well, how do you view, we were talking about this in class discussion once, about white people who speak an African American Vernacular?
I: Whew, uh, I have a love hate relationship with that. Umm, you see, I used to just totally disrespect people across the board who did that but then I finally had to realize that there were some people who grew up in that same environment that you grew up in without necessarily having to patronize you, so therefore, it's cool but if it's something that's goin on that you don't really understand... I mean, it's like sayin' somethin, like, repeating something that someone else said to you but you don't know exactly what it is and to me that doesn't really make sense and that would be the same thing to me.
B: Would you compare it more to like, if you think of AAVE as a language within itself, does it seem more to you like it's, I dunno, exclusively a social thing, people in your same social setting would use it or do you see it more as like a language and if a white person were to speak it it would be just as silly as like a white person walking into a circle of a bunch of Japanese people and speaking Japanese slang or throwing Japanese words around even though their culture didn't belong.
I: Well, no, not necessarily because... It's all about understanding because I used to, um, I've been in the same sort of situation because I used to live in Germany for a couple of years and I didn't like get fluent in German but all the Germans would be like, damn, you speak pretty good German so like after awhile I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this, and um, so I felt totally out of place, like a fish out of water, but, it was cool, but, at the same time it was like, I understood the mind set of Germans and Germany or whatever and therefore I had respect for it and I could approach it in like that manner but I think that a lot of people don't have respect for AAVE. They approach it in a manner where they don't have a lot of respect and therefore they don't really, ya know, to me, ya know, that's the one that doesn't belong so get out, ya know, whatever.
B: To shift gears a little, If you have children would you make a conscious effort to teach them standard English or would you just let them pick up, ya know, what they will?
I: Um, I'd definitely make sure that they understood all of the mechanics behind Standard English, ya know, to be viable in the society and I think that that's something that's a necessity, so I'm gonna be the mother of that invention. No, doubt.
B: umm, what about, let me put you in a situation: Let's say that your living in an urban area and the kids that your kids want to fit in with are heavy speakers of African American Vernacular, and except for the small amount of time that they are around their teachers or you or whatever, that's the only standard that they, uh, receive. Would you make a conscious effort to adjust their ideolect?
I: Well, not necessarily adjust but once again make sure that they have, like.... See all, the only difference between like people who speak AAVE only and people who are bidialectal, in my mind anyway, is that the people that aren't bidialectal didn't get exposure, or exposure enough to um, SE. See thats the only difference. If your exposed to it, you will pick it up, period. Even if you don't use it. So, you know, pseudo naturally.
B: So, just being in the home setting you think that would be enough exposure.
I: Well, not necessarily even me because I speak more of a vernacular. I dunno, I don't know how you would describe my vernacular.
B: I dunno, personally listening to you, coming from the white side of it you don't seem to speak vernacular very heavily if that's the adverb I'm looking for.
I: It's weird, because it's like a huge mixture. It's like my own personal...
B: ideolect
I: it is like an ideolect with heavy vernacular, I call it like, intellectual vernacular so I dunno, it's like strange.
B: That works, that works.
I: Not that I'm sayin I'm a smart guy or anything.
B: Like what we were saying before... It's all on a continuum and in my experience as far as people who consider themselves to be AAVE speakers. Um examples on this continuum would be Bryant Gumbel, the other end being those guys on Airplane! the movie, and I dunno, If you want to cut it in quarters I would see how you speak on the three quarter mark going one way and maybe how [this guy in our class, who we shall call Englebert] talks as the three-quarter mark going the other way.
I: That could be it, possibly, and the whole deal is like that I'll swing between the three.
B: yeah, it's a shifting scale and it's all relative. Umm.
I: Just being in this class I notice it so much more, whereas, I knew it before but it was never anything that I thought of.
B: In this class, for the most part, It makes you very conscious of the way that you talk. Even I, I sit there and I'm like, "man, I'm so white."
I: it's funny, but its like there... it's definitely a reality.
B: and I like what [Englebert] said, "I dunno about this bidialectal thing, this is the way I am... what you see is what you get" so there are definitely a lot of prejudices on one side or the other. When you stereotype somebody you assume things about them, we talked about this in class about if you have a really corse southern dialect then automatically you're stupid because you "sound" stupid and people tend to do the same thing when it comes to AAVE, and [Englebert] for instance is a very bright guy and it seems like, what I'm gettin' at is that [Englebert] could have an I.Q. of like 180 and talk the way he does and sit next to Bryant Gumbel who could have an I.Q. of like 85 and just from the way they speak people are gonna assume different things about them.
I: Just the opposite, but also on the topic of [Englebert], he feels very uninhibited in our class, but I guarantee you, that if you were to see him in some other class, or in some other important, standard situation in which AAVE wouldn't be quite so open armed, he would speak a whole lot differently, I guarantee you.
B: I agree totally, people tend to have ideals about themselves and even though, I'm sure that he would like to live up to those ideals.
I: I'm sure that's the way that he feels most comfortable speaking, but it would be lovely to see him in a different environment.
B: So what do you think about this issue of teachers taking classes on AAVE. Good idea?
I: Excellent. Especially, ya know, since I'm in the English Ed department, I wouldn't ever need to take any of those classes, because I am those classes. But, I know that especially in the city, the people that are teaching it need to be very enculturated as to the people that they are teaching. I think that that may be the missing link in the communication line between a lot of students. So let's do it.
B: The title of these courses would lend you to believe that your supposed to go in and learn it as if it is a different language and be able to communicate in it. Do you think that that's actually the goal, or that it's to prove to the people that take the class that it's a perfectly viable language?
I: No, I don't think it's important to prove to the people that it's viable, I think that it's important to prove to people that this is something that you're going to have to deal with, this is something, literally, that you're gonna have to face. All those people that go to Japan and Taiwan to teach English, they don't ever learn the language, but they can still teach English, and those people who learn English from people who don't know their language learn so much better... and it would be that same principle. Those people don't have to learn AAVE, they just have to learn, ya know, what pitfalls of AAVE would not allow students to learn SE effectively. See I look at it more as a grammatical issue, ya know, and when you really break it down thats what it comes down to because I don't care where you are, where you live, I mean, you can pretty much understand everybody as long as they are speaking some form of English, if you like, stop and slow down enough ... that could be the biggest thing that you have to do to understand that person. So, I know those people understand what they're saying, it's just like, once again, getting them to be able to, in part, knowledge of SE onto their students is what is the focus and is what is being missed.
B: Okay, here's a tougher question, how do you feel about people who are exclusive speakers of AAVE and through growing up their parents speak it their friends speak it and they don't learn any version of SE. How do you feel about their ability to communicate with others?
I: There again you're getting into that little funny area because anyone who speaks AAVE automatically, I mean they may not speak it, like, literally but they understand it because there's no way that you could be like totally isolated in the world only with AAVE simply because we live in America and you might have a nice homogenous environment where you get a heavy dose of AAVE, and you may... I think that after so long of not having to, being forced to speak SE, you're just like, fuck it, even when you do go into that environment....
B: I think I was talking specifically more, what about them trying to get across what they have to say to someone that speaks SE because I hear what you're saying about, ya know, they're gonna be able to understand anybody that speaks SE, no problem, because, ya know, television ... you hear it everywhere, but there are a lot of standard English speakers that will listen to an AAVE speaker and no know what the HELL they're talking about.
I: Well, see that's what I'm sayin', like, I think that's constant because AAVE speakers can communicate in SE if they choose.
B: Ahhh, so you're saying that these people... If it is the case that a white person listens to an AAVE speaker and can't understand them, there's a reason why they can't understand them.. If they wanted to get across what they had to say they could do it.
I: Crystal. Every single time. There's not one exception if you ask me. I'll give you an example: When I was in the Army, basically you can't speak AAVE to your superiors, if you go see the first sargent, you're gonna be speakin' some real straight up, G.I. Joe English which is, to me, basically Standard English with a double caffeine shot of military jargon.
B: You bring up being in the Army. What other little anecdotes do you have specifically dealing with you're stint in the service?
I: Not necessarily. I think that was one of the biggest parts of my exposure in life to different varieties of language. It didn't really start there, though, like when I was in high school I went to a real melting pot sort of school so I got exposure to a lot of things in there, and then when I went into the army I went to New Jersey first and got the New Jersey version for a little while and then I moved to Boston and I used to hang out in Rhode Island so I did that whole thing with "park the car" and all that other crap, and then I went to Germany after that. And you wanna know what the funny thing is? A lot of Germans learn English from Black G.I.'s and to me there's AAVE goin' on all over Germany because that's the only place where they learn their English from and it's like an AAVE version of English and it's weird as hell to see all of these German people speaking it and it's like totally out of place.
B: Why do you think that is, I mean, like what specifically puts more African American people in the position of teaching English?
I: Well, first of all, there's a disproportionate amount of Black people in the Army as opposed to like the rest of society. Sort of like that same thing with the prison thing, jail thing, army, what else... So you're gonna get like major instances of AAVE speaking and speech patterns so therefore I would say that that would probably be the reason.
B: That brings to mind a question: If there's a disproportionate amount of black people in the armed services and you were saying before that AAVE is just right out, is this another case of the minority controlling the majority? Like the minority of people in the army are imposing SE on the majority of speakers of AAVE?
I: Yes, totally, if you know anything about imperialization, that's the reason why we still have this predicament now. All this other race issue and all that bullshit is totally gotten out of language. If you want to subjugate someone, you take away their language. That's what happened and that's why black people are still fucked, basically, because they don't have a language. Go look at the Asian community, that's why they're so economically viable, they have their own language.
B: One thing that I've learned about war is that if you want to subjugate people, you go in and destroy their art museums, their theaters and take away their culture and without culture there is no group cohesion, which is a sociological issue, and language is a huge part of culture. Which brings to mind another question: Do you think that AAVE has persisted for so long is to create group cohesion and make a culture?
I: There we go. I would definitely say that, and it's like trying to make a linguistic culture, if you will, out of nothing, out of that pidgin/creole and we're totally in that like, decreolization point right now, umm... but I think that it would only decreolize to a certain extent because you can't like totally wipe it out, because I like to watch those futuristic type movies where they all talk the same and I think that it will happen like that.
B: I think the same thing because if you look at the way black people spoke before school integration and where we are now it's like, worlds different and I think that it's gonna be the same on both sides with like, AAVE being incorporated into white speech and...
I: like a share thing
B: yeah, it's not like the Mexican community which, in Georgia is not as large as it would be in like Texas, so it wouldn't be as heavy an influence, I don't know the exact statistics but blacks and whites are about 50/50 most places...
I: See that's the common misconception... that's what I wanted to say... See that is the key to this whole class, to this whole everything. Everything that we've ever talked about in class but nobody has said anything about it and sometimes, ya know, I want to bring in like other issues and they're not like totally relevant like linguistics so it's not totally relevant but it is at the same time. What people don't realize is that there are only like 300 million people in this country, okay, and 10% of them are black 7% of them are Hispanic 4% are Asian and the rest are etc. I hate to group the rest of whoever ya'll are as etc. umm, so there's only like a 10% black population in this whole country and that's only like 1 out of 10 people and it doesn't look like that even to me, but it is and it's so weird. I always say, "where the fuck are all of these white people" but they're out there and I know it and it's like the other day when Dr. Lanehart said that there's some white person who had never seen a black person before and that has to be the case in like so many places.
B: It's like preppy little white girl that goes to private school her entire life and then goes to a state college and suddenly there's black people, ya know? That girl is gonna be uncomfortable because she's never seen a black person before... It doesn't make her racist or anything else, it just means that she's uncomfortable until she gets some exposure.
I: That's all it is man, totally.
B: So, would you say that the key to racial harmony is...
I: exposure? Yep. It's just like I said. The people that speak AAVE, in order for them to speak AAVE as well as you or I or anyone else they just need to be exposed.
B: That brings to mind a question: We've already established that AAVE is a way of bringing culture to people with no culture in relation to the way that Asians and Hispanics do when they create their little communities and exclude other people... Do you see that the same kind of thing with AAVE and people who adamantly speak AAVE are trying to exclude...
I: Well, I think that the exclusionary practice part of it is like a byproduct as opposed to a goal, but I think that it definitely happens, yeah.
B: If exposure is a key to people getting along, going on that model, do you think that AAVE in some way is a vehicle by which exclusion continues to happen and there's not as much exposure between cultures?
I: Um, I think that probably no, because the exclusion is really like from the other side of it because the Asian community, Hispanic, AAVE what have you, all have a clear understanding of what SE is but the SE environment doesn't have a clear and total understanding of all these other environments, so therefore it's sort of like, well, we're not being invited in the door so we're gonna create our own little tiny door and it is a, like, progressional type thing as far as, like building on AAVE, but at the same time it does exclude, but I feel like the people who are speaking AAVE are feeling like, hey, we're not accepted socially or linguistically so therefore we have to create our own thing and then from that microcosm and the SE microcosm, that's where the problems come from.
B: Any assorted comments before we wrap up?
I: I think that we just about covered it. I just wanted to make it really clear that all AAVE speakers have a total grasp of SE, um, at least from a speaking standpoint, maybe not writing and that sort of thing.
B: Well, okay... Ta da.